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	<title>Comments on: Anna Hazare: What Academic Arguments Miss</title>
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	<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/nationalpolitics/anna-hazare-what-academic-arguments-miss</link>
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		<title>By: Arghya</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/nationalpolitics/anna-hazare-what-academic-arguments-miss#comment-2870</link>
		<dc:creator>Arghya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2011 08:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=2752#comment-2870</guid>
		<description>Yes Rohit, I agree. There is a genuine problem at a general level regarding civil society champions, who they are, how they are chosen. But there is a direct check, albeit not through elections, that is there right, i.e. the people will not support a movement by persons who they think are leading it for their own publicity and self-promotion. I think we shouldn&#039;t discount that but should work with this framework and see how it can be strengthened so that we can keep publicity-happy self-proclaimed champions of civil society away. And that too keeping the fact distinctly in mind, that the protest&#039;s legitimacy itself is contingent on how exigent the circumstances are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Rohit, I agree. There is a genuine problem at a general level regarding civil society champions, who they are, how they are chosen. But there is a direct check, albeit not through elections, that is there right, i.e. the people will not support a movement by persons who they think are leading it for their own publicity and self-promotion. I think we shouldn&#8217;t discount that but should work with this framework and see how it can be strengthened so that we can keep publicity-happy self-proclaimed champions of civil society away. And that too keeping the fact distinctly in mind, that the protest&#8217;s legitimacy itself is contingent on how exigent the circumstances are.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohit</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/nationalpolitics/anna-hazare-what-academic-arguments-miss#comment-2867</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=2752#comment-2867</guid>
		<description>Arghya, I am sure you&#039;ve seen this by now (http://kafila.org/2011/04/09/at-the-risk-of-heresy-why-i-am-not-celebrating-with-anna-hazare/), I think the anaology to the cultural revolution is a little far fetched but some things strike a chord, particularly, &quot;..The tragedy that we are facing today is that the legitimate public 
outrage against corruption is being channelled in a profoundly 
authoritarian direction. In all the noise there has been a lot of talk 
about cynicism, and anyone who has expressed the faintest doubt has been
branded as a cynic. I do not see every expression of doubt in this 
context as cynicism, instead I see the fact that those who cry hoarse&quot; So I am suspicous about the smoke. 

I don&#039;t think the problem is with Anna Hazare (who as he himself said is not keen on a formal position) but of elevating civil society leaders that we &#039;apparently have all accepted&#039;. Kejriwal, perhaps but Lata Mangeshkar, no? I agree with you on the Lokpal Bill, and look forward to reading your legislative brief on the same. 

In the cow slaughter case, the central government said it was a state subject. Finally, the Shankaracharya was successful and got a number of states to enact stricter laws, diluted the Hanif Qureshi judgment and set up a national committee on cattle development or some such. Kerala and West Bengal, both ruled by the Communists, held out against Vinobha Bhave, and politely suggested that they could make peace with his death. I believe he withdrew his fast. Bhave incidentally won both the Magsasay award and the Bharat Ratna</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arghya, I am sure you&#8217;ve seen this by now (<a href="http://kafila.org/2011/04/09/at-the-risk-of-heresy-why-i-am-not-celebrating-with-anna-hazare/" rel="nofollow">http://kafila.org/2011/04/09/at-the-risk-of-heresy-why-i-am-not-celebrating-with-anna-hazare/</a>), I think the anaology to the cultural revolution is a little far fetched but some things strike a chord, particularly, &#8220;..The tragedy that we are facing today is that the legitimate public<br />
outrage against corruption is being channelled in a profoundly<br />
authoritarian direction. In all the noise there has been a lot of talk<br />
about cynicism, and anyone who has expressed the faintest doubt has been<br />
branded as a cynic. I do not see every expression of doubt in this<br />
context as cynicism, instead I see the fact that those who cry hoarse&#8221; So I am suspicous about the smoke. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the problem is with Anna Hazare (who as he himself said is not keen on a formal position) but of elevating civil society leaders that we &#8216;apparently have all accepted&#8217;. Kejriwal, perhaps but Lata Mangeshkar, no? I agree with you on the Lokpal Bill, and look forward to reading your legislative brief on the same. </p>
<p>In the cow slaughter case, the central government said it was a state subject. Finally, the Shankaracharya was successful and got a number of states to enact stricter laws, diluted the Hanif Qureshi judgment and set up a national committee on cattle development or some such. Kerala and West Bengal, both ruled by the Communists, held out against Vinobha Bhave, and politely suggested that they could make peace with his death. I believe he withdrew his fast. Bhave incidentally won both the Magsasay award and the Bharat Ratna</p>
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		<title>By: Arghya</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/nationalpolitics/anna-hazare-what-academic-arguments-miss#comment-2866</link>
		<dc:creator>Arghya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=2752#comment-2866</guid>
		<description>Rohit, thanks for your comment. I am certain that we all share a common frustration at the system which is great, since there are many who do not and as reasonable people disagree on how best that frustration can be alleviated. In response to your points, I have two things to say:
1. The mainstream media- I am no fan of the mainstream media at all; I think what we get very often is reactive reporting, sensationalism and created stories. But I think there is something to be said in this case about a. sentiments expressed by several who are there at the site and their passion for the issue; b. the interest that the issue has generated in large sections across the country, across as you said, vernacular newspapers, blogs and other sources which do not immediately strike us as mainstream. And the fact that the government has had to sit up and take notice does show that it is not just a vacuous media creation; clearly no smoke without fire, no matter if the smoke seems suspiciously excessive.
2. Representativeness- As a general principle I agree, we must be skeptical of those who claim to &#039;represent&#039; civil society. As I think you yourself said in one of your posts as a member of civil society, you or I may not want Sri etc. Ravi Shankar to be my spokesperson. But there are two cases where the general norm may be departed from: a. when the issue demands that some positive action be taken as a measure of last resort and b. when the person herself is of integrity, who has been accepted across the board. I think both these situations are met in this case- endemic corruption being the worst scourge on India for as long as I can remember and the person Anna Hazare, a Gandhian of impeccable modern credentials whose motivations cannot be questioned. And I think testimony to this fact is the spontaneous support that he has received. I am not sure if it had been Dawood Ibrahim ( I take an extreme example only to give you a drift of my point) there would have been a similar reaction. 

3. Not surrendering one&#039;s liberty at the altar of a benevolent do-gooder is certainly wise as a matter of course. And creating the lokpal as an institution which will be almost a supra-constitutional authority is unwise. The lokpal too must be within the checks and balances framework, its ambition must also be made to counteract with ambition of another without compromising its independence. It is a question of appropriate design which can be hopefully worked out as a compromise deal- given the polar nature of the drafts, it seems quite plausible.

Finally, I love the example that the reason for a hunger strike in the 60s and the 70s was for cow slaughter. But did anything come out of it? That may be interesting to see if we can draw any comparisons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rohit, thanks for your comment. I am certain that we all share a common frustration at the system which is great, since there are many who do not and as reasonable people disagree on how best that frustration can be alleviated. In response to your points, I have two things to say:<br />
1. The mainstream media- I am no fan of the mainstream media at all; I think what we get very often is reactive reporting, sensationalism and created stories. But I think there is something to be said in this case about a. sentiments expressed by several who are there at the site and their passion for the issue; b. the interest that the issue has generated in large sections across the country, across as you said, vernacular newspapers, blogs and other sources which do not immediately strike us as mainstream. And the fact that the government has had to sit up and take notice does show that it is not just a vacuous media creation; clearly no smoke without fire, no matter if the smoke seems suspiciously excessive.<br />
2. Representativeness- As a general principle I agree, we must be skeptical of those who claim to &#8216;represent&#8217; civil society. As I think you yourself said in one of your posts as a member of civil society, you or I may not want Sri etc. Ravi Shankar to be my spokesperson. But there are two cases where the general norm may be departed from: a. when the issue demands that some positive action be taken as a measure of last resort and b. when the person herself is of integrity, who has been accepted across the board. I think both these situations are met in this case- endemic corruption being the worst scourge on India for as long as I can remember and the person Anna Hazare, a Gandhian of impeccable modern credentials whose motivations cannot be questioned. And I think testimony to this fact is the spontaneous support that he has received. I am not sure if it had been Dawood Ibrahim ( I take an extreme example only to give you a drift of my point) there would have been a similar reaction. </p>
<p>3. Not surrendering one&#8217;s liberty at the altar of a benevolent do-gooder is certainly wise as a matter of course. And creating the lokpal as an institution which will be almost a supra-constitutional authority is unwise. The lokpal too must be within the checks and balances framework, its ambition must also be made to counteract with ambition of another without compromising its independence. It is a question of appropriate design which can be hopefully worked out as a compromise deal- given the polar nature of the drafts, it seems quite plausible.</p>
<p>Finally, I love the example that the reason for a hunger strike in the 60s and the 70s was for cow slaughter. But did anything come out of it? That may be interesting to see if we can draw any comparisons.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohit</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/nationalpolitics/anna-hazare-what-academic-arguments-miss#comment-2865</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=2752#comment-2865</guid>
		<description>@Arghya

I am unsure as to why you believe that only academics or aspiring academics have chosen to take a more critical stance than most on Facebook. Perhaps there is a sampling error as a result of who one is friends with :-)

There is a great deal of  justifiable fury at the system, and it is always inspiring to see people mobilize and participate in public debate. Kudos to that.

I am little struck by your description of the &#039;contrarian views&#039;. These views (and these sentiments are expressed by a broad ideological sweep including right wing bloggers like Acorn, liberals like PBM and left leaning Hindi journalists like Dilip Mandal). These views you suggest belong to an ivory tower, because they are in &quot;in stark contrast with the wider views heard in the mainstream media&quot; and this is evidence of &quot; a thinly disguised hubris of knowing better than the ordinary Indian who supports Anna Hazare’s protest&quot;.

Given events of the last year, are we really suggesting that &#039;mainstream media&#039; provides an  authentic and unmediated representation of reality and the &#039;real Indians&#039;. Therefore to disagree with &#039;mainstream media&#039; is to disagree with the &#039;mainstream&#039;. If that were the case, we would still be asking Nira Radia who?

Most of us can only speak for ourselves. Therefore, I am little suspicious of claims of knowing what the &#039;ordinary Indian&#039; wants, and of declaring certain figures as representatives of &#039;civil society&#039;. It is one thing to draft someone for their expertise in a field, like members of NAC or the Planning Commission or retired judges are, but quite another to invest them with some form of representativeness. To turn to the grammar of anarchy speech once again, Amedkar reminds us &quot;The second thing we must do is to observe the caution which John Stuart Mill has given to all who are interested in the maintenance of democracy, namely, not &quot;to lay their liberties at the feet of even a great man, or to trust him with power which enable him to subvert their institutions&quot;. There is nothing wrong in being grateful to great men who have rendered life-long services to the country. But there are limits to gratefulness. As has been well said by the Irish Patriot Daniel O&#039;Connel, no man can be grateful at the cost of his honour, no woman can be grateful at the cost of her chastity and no nation can be grateful at the cost of its liberty. This caution is far more necessary in the case of India than in the case of any other country&quot;

There are of course larger questions about the use of fast as a political weapon, the popularity of a certain fast as opposed to others, and the people/goals the protest seeks to promote. Anti-corruption is a wide platform that seems to have attracted even Lalit Modi and Pappu Yadav. 

Perhaps it serves to turn to history. In some ways Ambedkar&#039;s suspicion is extraordinary. Why would a member of a persecuted minority uphold elected majoritarian democracy? Because it was precisely such a method wrapped up in a moral imperative that was used by Gandhi to force him and dalits to give up their demand for separate electorates. It is hard to defend minority rights by constitutional means, but it is harder when faced with an unconstitutional &quot;moral imperative&quot;. It is perhaps not surprising that two of the prominent legislation by hunger strike demands in independent India have been to enforce a ban on cow slaughter ( Shankaracharya in the 60s and Vinobha Bhave in the 70s).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Arghya</p>
<p>I am unsure as to why you believe that only academics or aspiring academics have chosen to take a more critical stance than most on Facebook. Perhaps there is a sampling error as a result of who one is friends with <img src='/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>There is a great deal of  justifiable fury at the system, and it is always inspiring to see people mobilize and participate in public debate. Kudos to that.</p>
<p>I am little struck by your description of the &#8216;contrarian views&#8217;. These views (and these sentiments are expressed by a broad ideological sweep including right wing bloggers like Acorn, liberals like PBM and left leaning Hindi journalists like Dilip Mandal). These views you suggest belong to an ivory tower, because they are in &#8220;in stark contrast with the wider views heard in the mainstream media&#8221; and this is evidence of &#8221; a thinly disguised hubris of knowing better than the ordinary Indian who supports Anna Hazare’s protest&#8221;.</p>
<p>Given events of the last year, are we really suggesting that &#8216;mainstream media&#8217; provides an  authentic and unmediated representation of reality and the &#8216;real Indians&#8217;. Therefore to disagree with &#8216;mainstream media&#8217; is to disagree with the &#8216;mainstream&#8217;. If that were the case, we would still be asking Nira Radia who?</p>
<p>Most of us can only speak for ourselves. Therefore, I am little suspicious of claims of knowing what the &#8216;ordinary Indian&#8217; wants, and of declaring certain figures as representatives of &#8216;civil society&#8217;. It is one thing to draft someone for their expertise in a field, like members of NAC or the Planning Commission or retired judges are, but quite another to invest them with some form of representativeness. To turn to the grammar of anarchy speech once again, Amedkar reminds us &#8220;The second thing we must do is to observe the caution which John Stuart Mill has given to all who are interested in the maintenance of democracy, namely, not &#8220;to lay their liberties at the feet of even a great man, or to trust him with power which enable him to subvert their institutions&#8221;. There is nothing wrong in being grateful to great men who have rendered life-long services to the country. But there are limits to gratefulness. As has been well said by the Irish Patriot Daniel O&#8217;Connel, no man can be grateful at the cost of his honour, no woman can be grateful at the cost of her chastity and no nation can be grateful at the cost of its liberty. This caution is far more necessary in the case of India than in the case of any other country&#8221;</p>
<p>There are of course larger questions about the use of fast as a political weapon, the popularity of a certain fast as opposed to others, and the people/goals the protest seeks to promote. Anti-corruption is a wide platform that seems to have attracted even Lalit Modi and Pappu Yadav. </p>
<p>Perhaps it serves to turn to history. In some ways Ambedkar&#8217;s suspicion is extraordinary. Why would a member of a persecuted minority uphold elected majoritarian democracy? Because it was precisely such a method wrapped up in a moral imperative that was used by Gandhi to force him and dalits to give up their demand for separate electorates. It is hard to defend minority rights by constitutional means, but it is harder when faced with an unconstitutional &#8220;moral imperative&#8221;. It is perhaps not surprising that two of the prominent legislation by hunger strike demands in independent India have been to enforce a ban on cow slaughter ( Shankaracharya in the 60s and Vinobha Bhave in the 70s).</p>
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