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	<title>Comments on: Five things we learned from Roland Garros</title>
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	<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros</link>
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		<title>By: Suhrith</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7361</link>
		<dc:creator>Suhrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 04:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7361</guid>
		<description>Rohan,

Thanks again. On the point of Federer&#039;s place amongst the all-time greats, let me make myself a little clearer. I don&#039;t, for one moment, doubt his place in such a list. And you&#039;re right, his victory over Djokovic in the semifinal reaffirms his place in the pantheon. My only complaint is against people labelling Federer as THE Greatest of all time, which I think is unfair on Sampras, Borg, etc., and in any event an exercise on those lines can only be futile. 

On the point concerning Nadal&#039;s greatness, I sometimes think its not necessary to make a host of finals but to ensure that when you do get there, you make it count. And Nadal has done that both at the Australian Open and the US Open. As for the point on him losing to the likes of del Potro (and often a hammering at that), its well made. Federer rarely gets undone in such a manner and even his loss, for instance, to Safin at the Australian Open came after an intense battle, which on another day could have resulted in a Federer victory. But the same &#039;some reason&#039; which you say for Federer and Borg losing in the finals of the French and the US respectively can equally be applied to Nadal. He for &#039;some reason&#039; manages to win on those big occasions. That in itself is a feature of his greatness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rohan,</p>
<p>Thanks again. On the point of Federer&#8217;s place amongst the all-time greats, let me make myself a little clearer. I don&#8217;t, for one moment, doubt his place in such a list. And you&#8217;re right, his victory over Djokovic in the semifinal reaffirms his place in the pantheon. My only complaint is against people labelling Federer as THE Greatest of all time, which I think is unfair on Sampras, Borg, etc., and in any event an exercise on those lines can only be futile. </p>
<p>On the point concerning Nadal&#8217;s greatness, I sometimes think its not necessary to make a host of finals but to ensure that when you do get there, you make it count. And Nadal has done that both at the Australian Open and the US Open. As for the point on him losing to the likes of del Potro (and often a hammering at that), its well made. Federer rarely gets undone in such a manner and even his loss, for instance, to Safin at the Australian Open came after an intense battle, which on another day could have resulted in a Federer victory. But the same &#8216;some reason&#8217; which you say for Federer and Borg losing in the finals of the French and the US respectively can equally be applied to Nadal. He for &#8216;some reason&#8217; manages to win on those big occasions. That in itself is a feature of his greatness.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7360</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 04:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7360</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reply Suhrith. Several points to be made here.
1. In 2007, Federer and Nadal played 5 matches: Federer won 3 and Nadal 2. Both of Nadal&#039;s victories were on clay (Monte Carlo and RG), whereas Federer won one each on clay (Hamburg), grass (Wimbledon) and hard (China Masters). I don&#039;t think anybody considers 2008 to be a part of Federer&#039;s peak. 
2. Davydenko holds a winning record against Nadal. Del Potro has &#039;embarassed&#039; him on several occasions (including a 6-2, 6-2, 6-2 thrashing in the &#039;09 US Open semis). However, I don&#039;t hold this against him. Tendulkar struggles against left arm spin as also against McGrath, his chief rival, who got the better of him on most occasions. However, most agree that he is at least the second greatest batsment of all time, 2nd only because he cannot match the numbers of Sir Don. The point here being that a sportsman&#039;s standing is to be judged by his cumulative performance over a period of time against all other opponents in different conditions, at home and away, etc.
On that, Federer may have a solitary RG title, but it is backed by 4 or 5 finals appearances. I believe Borg too reached finals of the US open several times, but for some reason, didn&#039;t manage to win. In any case, he dominated on 2 out of 4 slams, which by itself is pretty substantial. Sampras&#039;s is a truly unique case - domination in 3 out of 4 slams. Nadal has reached the US and AO final ONCE - that too, at a time when all his rivals (Murray, Federer, Djokovic, Del Potro) were mostly struggling with their own games, or injured. Don&#039;t get me wrong - he is an excellent player; all I am saying is that the answer to his all time greatness is not &#039;yes&#039;, but rather &#039;not yet&#039;. If he can back up his 2010 performance in &#039;11 and &#039;12, the answer would certainly change.
3. Coming back to the first lesson to be learnt from RG, while you take the Federer&#039;s  (Now age 30) defeat to Nadal  in four sets as a reason to question his all time greatness, I would take his victory over Djokovic in the semi-finals as simply re-affirming the tag he had actually cemented much much earlier. While you take Borg&#039;s and Sampras&#039;s blips on certain surfaces to elevate Nadal to their stature, I take those figures to in fact suggest that Federer has surpassed them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reply Suhrith. Several points to be made here.<br />
1. In 2007, Federer and Nadal played 5 matches: Federer won 3 and Nadal 2. Both of Nadal&#8217;s victories were on clay (Monte Carlo and RG), whereas Federer won one each on clay (Hamburg), grass (Wimbledon) and hard (China Masters). I don&#8217;t think anybody considers 2008 to be a part of Federer&#8217;s peak.<br />
2. Davydenko holds a winning record against Nadal. Del Potro has &#8216;embarassed&#8217; him on several occasions (including a 6-2, 6-2, 6-2 thrashing in the &#8217;09 US Open semis). However, I don&#8217;t hold this against him. Tendulkar struggles against left arm spin as also against McGrath, his chief rival, who got the better of him on most occasions. However, most agree that he is at least the second greatest batsment of all time, 2nd only because he cannot match the numbers of Sir Don. The point here being that a sportsman&#8217;s standing is to be judged by his cumulative performance over a period of time against all other opponents in different conditions, at home and away, etc.<br />
On that, Federer may have a solitary RG title, but it is backed by 4 or 5 finals appearances. I believe Borg too reached finals of the US open several times, but for some reason, didn&#8217;t manage to win. In any case, he dominated on 2 out of 4 slams, which by itself is pretty substantial. Sampras&#8217;s is a truly unique case &#8211; domination in 3 out of 4 slams. Nadal has reached the US and AO final ONCE &#8211; that too, at a time when all his rivals (Murray, Federer, Djokovic, Del Potro) were mostly struggling with their own games, or injured. Don&#8217;t get me wrong &#8211; he is an excellent player; all I am saying is that the answer to his all time greatness is not &#8216;yes&#8217;, but rather &#8216;not yet&#8217;. If he can back up his 2010 performance in &#8217;11 and &#8217;12, the answer would certainly change.<br />
3. Coming back to the first lesson to be learnt from RG, while you take the Federer&#8217;s  (Now age 30) defeat to Nadal  in four sets as a reason to question his all time greatness, I would take his victory over Djokovic in the semi-finals as simply re-affirming the tag he had actually cemented much much earlier. While you take Borg&#8217;s and Sampras&#8217;s blips on certain surfaces to elevate Nadal to their stature, I take those figures to in fact suggest that Federer has surpassed them.</p>
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		<title>By: Suhrith</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7292</link>
		<dc:creator>Suhrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7292</guid>
		<description>Tushar,

Ya comparing across eras is almost impossible making any exercise of determining the greatest player of all time futile. Disagree, though on the point of numbers to an extent. Let&#039;s say Djokovic in the years to come defeats Nadal many times and goes on to enjoy a superior head-to-head record, but fails to win more than another 2 Grand Slam titles, then he will not have an indisputable claim to greatness. I think its a combination of factors and numbers will also have to play a role. At the moment, I guess Nadal ticks most boxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tushar,</p>
<p>Ya comparing across eras is almost impossible making any exercise of determining the greatest player of all time futile. Disagree, though on the point of numbers to an extent. Let&#8217;s say Djokovic in the years to come defeats Nadal many times and goes on to enjoy a superior head-to-head record, but fails to win more than another 2 Grand Slam titles, then he will not have an indisputable claim to greatness. I think its a combination of factors and numbers will also have to play a role. At the moment, I guess Nadal ticks most boxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Tushar</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7278</link>
		<dc:creator>Tushar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7278</guid>
		<description>And isn&#039;t that what greatness is about?? Beating the best, not once not twice but many times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And isn&#8217;t that what greatness is about?? Beating the best, not once not twice but many times.</p>
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		<title>By: Tushar</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7271</link>
		<dc:creator>Tushar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7271</guid>
		<description>SUH P!!
Agreed man, you know how many times we&#039;ve spoken about comparing different players from different eras, to compare Sampras to Laver or Borg to Federer is just not fair. Different eras have completely different conditions, equipment and other competitors. In fact, both Nadal and Federer belong to that pantheon of &#039;the greatest players in the history of men&#039;s tennis. According to me even if Nadal had a paltry one or two grand slams to his credit I would still put him in that category simply because he has beaten, the greatest ever(according to some people) on so so many occasions. Rather, he has even embarrassed Federer at times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SUH P!!<br />
Agreed man, you know how many times we&#8217;ve spoken about comparing different players from different eras, to compare Sampras to Laver or Borg to Federer is just not fair. Different eras have completely different conditions, equipment and other competitors. In fact, both Nadal and Federer belong to that pantheon of &#8216;the greatest players in the history of men&#8217;s tennis. According to me even if Nadal had a paltry one or two grand slams to his credit I would still put him in that category simply because he has beaten, the greatest ever(according to some people) on so so many occasions. Rather, he has even embarrassed Federer at times.</p>
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		<title>By: Suhrith</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7270</link>
		<dc:creator>Suhrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7270</guid>
		<description>Rohan,

Thanks for your comment. I get your argument that their respective peaks, perhaps, do not quite match. But that said, I would argue, first, that Federer&#039;s peak did coincide briefly with Nadal&#039;s rise (2007-08), a period in which Nadal dominated their meetings. Agreed, most of them were on clay, but it was domination nonetheless. Second, their meetings in Grand Slam finals is telling. Federer has never beaten Nadal at Roland Garros (admittedly played on a surface that suits Nadal), but Nadal has defeated  Federer in the final of both Wimbledon and the Australian Open (where  you would have to regard Federer as the favourite), something which suggest that Federer suffers some sort of mental block when playing Nadal on the biggest of occasions. This I agree doesn&#039;t necessarily suggest Nadal is a better player than Federer and that he should be placed higher than Federer in the pantheon, but it negates any claim that Federer is the greatest of all time. In the first place, I think its impossible to define a player as the greatest and certainly not when through a sustained period of his career he has come a cropper against his chief rival. 

Also on the argument about Nadal&#039;s place amongst the greats, if he necessarily needs to achieve more in the US Open and the Australian Open to be compared with the &#039;all-time greats&#039;, then Sampras who has never gotten past the semi-final at Roland Garros and Federer who has, but a solitary title in Paris, have no place in that list, wouldn&#039;t you say? Borg never won the US Open and didn&#039;t get past the 3rd round in his only appearance in the Aus Open, but he&#039;s certainly one of the all-time greats. McEnroe never won in France and Australia. Likewise, Connors never won the French Open. But Nadal has certainly transcended those boundaries. So if he puts down his tennis racquet right this moment and retires, I&#039;d still think he has the right to be considered alongside these names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rohan,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment. I get your argument that their respective peaks, perhaps, do not quite match. But that said, I would argue, first, that Federer&#8217;s peak did coincide briefly with Nadal&#8217;s rise (2007-08), a period in which Nadal dominated their meetings. Agreed, most of them were on clay, but it was domination nonetheless. Second, their meetings in Grand Slam finals is telling. Federer has never beaten Nadal at Roland Garros (admittedly played on a surface that suits Nadal), but Nadal has defeated  Federer in the final of both Wimbledon and the Australian Open (where  you would have to regard Federer as the favourite), something which suggest that Federer suffers some sort of mental block when playing Nadal on the biggest of occasions. This I agree doesn&#8217;t necessarily suggest Nadal is a better player than Federer and that he should be placed higher than Federer in the pantheon, but it negates any claim that Federer is the greatest of all time. In the first place, I think its impossible to define a player as the greatest and certainly not when through a sustained period of his career he has come a cropper against his chief rival. </p>
<p>Also on the argument about Nadal&#8217;s place amongst the greats, if he necessarily needs to achieve more in the US Open and the Australian Open to be compared with the &#8216;all-time greats&#8217;, then Sampras who has never gotten past the semi-final at Roland Garros and Federer who has, but a solitary title in Paris, have no place in that list, wouldn&#8217;t you say? Borg never won the US Open and didn&#8217;t get past the 3rd round in his only appearance in the Aus Open, but he&#8217;s certainly one of the all-time greats. McEnroe never won in France and Australia. Likewise, Connors never won the French Open. But Nadal has certainly transcended those boundaries. So if he puts down his tennis racquet right this moment and retires, I&#8217;d still think he has the right to be considered alongside these names.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7268</link>
		<dc:creator>Rohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 08:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7268</guid>
		<description>Disagree completely on the Federer-Nadal comparison. Two major correctives are needed to better appreciate the 17-8 H2H: 1. An enormous number of their matches have been played on clay on which Nadal is probably the greatest of all time; 2. Age difference - Federer is a good 5 years older than Nadal and his peak was in the period 2004-07, whereas Nadal&#039;s is more recent (2008-10). Unfortunately Nadal did not even reach the latter stages of most events in the period of Federer&#039;s domination or the stats could have been very different.
Consequently, in non-clay events from 2004-2007, the record was 5-2 in favour of Federer. Out of Nadal&#039;s 17 victories over Federer, a staggering 12 are on clay!
It would be unfair to read too much into Federer&#039;s recent losses to Nadal - he is well beyond his peak whereas Nadal has just entered his. 
On the position of Nadal amongst the all time greats, again I would have to respectfully disagree. He is certainly one of the greatest claycourt players of all time with 6 RG and a huge bunch of Masters titles, but he will have to significantly improve his performance in the other 3 slams (only 1 US and Australian each). Disproportionately large number of victories on clay do not service his quest for all time all round greatness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disagree completely on the Federer-Nadal comparison. Two major correctives are needed to better appreciate the 17-8 H2H: 1. An enormous number of their matches have been played on clay on which Nadal is probably the greatest of all time; 2. Age difference &#8211; Federer is a good 5 years older than Nadal and his peak was in the period 2004-07, whereas Nadal&#8217;s is more recent (2008-10). Unfortunately Nadal did not even reach the latter stages of most events in the period of Federer&#8217;s domination or the stats could have been very different.<br />
Consequently, in non-clay events from 2004-2007, the record was 5-2 in favour of Federer. Out of Nadal&#8217;s 17 victories over Federer, a staggering 12 are on clay!<br />
It would be unfair to read too much into Federer&#8217;s recent losses to Nadal &#8211; he is well beyond his peak whereas Nadal has just entered his.<br />
On the position of Nadal amongst the all time greats, again I would have to respectfully disagree. He is certainly one of the greatest claycourt players of all time with 6 RG and a huge bunch of Masters titles, but he will have to significantly improve his performance in the other 3 slams (only 1 US and Australian each). Disproportionately large number of victories on clay do not service his quest for all time all round greatness.</p>
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		<title>By: Suhrith</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7179</link>
		<dc:creator>Suhrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7179</guid>
		<description>Hi Anisha,

Thanks for your comment. I think it&#039;s, per se, not possible to compare across eras. Statistically, Federer in Grand Slams, at least, is above everyone else, but it is impossible to say without doubt that he was better than Laver, Sampras, etc. And the fact that he is, perhaps, not even the best of his own generation only makes the argument that he is the greatest of all time that much more dubious. Like you say the fact that he is not better than Laver or Sampras may not flow from his record against Nadal, but at least those two stood mostly peerless in their own eras. 

And on the question of Nadal&#039;s place own place in the pantheon, like you say this victory only fortifies it. There is no question that he is up with there with the greatest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Anisha,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment. I think it&#8217;s, per se, not possible to compare across eras. Statistically, Federer in Grand Slams, at least, is above everyone else, but it is impossible to say without doubt that he was better than Laver, Sampras, etc. And the fact that he is, perhaps, not even the best of his own generation only makes the argument that he is the greatest of all time that much more dubious. Like you say the fact that he is not better than Laver or Sampras may not flow from his record against Nadal, but at least those two stood mostly peerless in their own eras. </p>
<p>And on the question of Nadal&#8217;s place own place in the pantheon, like you say this victory only fortifies it. There is no question that he is up with there with the greatest.</p>
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		<title>By: Anisha</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7175</link>
		<dc:creator>Anisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jun 2011 09:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7175</guid>
		<description>Hi Suhrith. Enjoyed the article but I&#039;m not sure I follow your thinking on the comment about Federer not being the greatest of all time. If Federer&#039;s record against Nadal is poor, then why does it imply that Sampras and Laver are better players than Federer? If anything, it should imply that Rafa is making a good case to have his own name elevated into the all-time greats pantheon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Suhrith. Enjoyed the article but I&#8217;m not sure I follow your thinking on the comment about Federer not being the greatest of all time. If Federer&#8217;s record against Nadal is poor, then why does it imply that Sampras and Laver are better players than Federer? If anything, it should imply that Rafa is making a good case to have his own name elevated into the all-time greats pantheon.</p>
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		<title>By: Suhrith</title>
		<link>http://www.criticaltwenties.in/sport/five-things-we-learned-from-roland-garros#comment-7120</link>
		<dc:creator>Suhrith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2011 10:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.criticaltwenties.in/?p=3260#comment-7120</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think so. Murray is one of the top players in the world at the moment and I made the point not because he is British but because he has the potential to win a Grand Slam. I brought in Fred Perry, etc., to merely show the pressure that Murray is put under by the British press. 

America is obviously going through a trough in terms of producing quality tennis players. But that is a point more specific to tennis in general as opposed to being a take-away from Roland Garros, where no American has  won, or for that matter come close to winning, since Agassi in 1999.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think so. Murray is one of the top players in the world at the moment and I made the point not because he is British but because he has the potential to win a Grand Slam. I brought in Fred Perry, etc., to merely show the pressure that Murray is put under by the British press. </p>
<p>America is obviously going through a trough in terms of producing quality tennis players. But that is a point more specific to tennis in general as opposed to being a take-away from Roland Garros, where no American has  won, or for that matter come close to winning, since Agassi in 1999.</p>
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